With MP Jagmeet Singh, lawyer, human rights activist, and Leader of Canada’s New Democratic Party.
Transcript
00:00:01 Andrea
Hello and welcome to Alright, Now What? I’m your host, Andrea Gunraj from the Canadian Women’s Foundation.
Gender equality and justice where we live, work, learn, and play is the goal. And it makes life better for everyone. This podcast is our chance to connect with insightful people and explore what it’ll take to get there in Canada.
The work of the Canadian Women’s Foundation and our partners takes place on traditional First Nations, Métis, and Inuit territories. We are grateful for the opportunity to meet and work on this land. However, we recognize that land acknowledgments are not enough. We need to pursue truth, reconciliation, decolonization, and allyship in an ongoing effort to make right with all our relations.
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00:01:30 Andrea
Today I’m interviewing MP Jagmeet Singh — lawyer, human rights activist, and leader of Canada’s New Democratic Party.
I start by asking Jagmeet to do the Gender Equality Changemaker quiz we launched earlier this year as part of our new Count Me In initiative for a gender-equal Canada. Please check it out yourself at yescountmein.ca.
Okay, MP Singh, you have beef. Share your beef.
00:01:56 Jagmeet
I do, I do. First of all, Ms. Gunraj — should I refer to you as ‘Ms. Gunraj’?
00:01:59 Andrea
No! Refer to me as Andrea.
00:02:01 Jagmeet
Then you gotta call me ‘Jagmeet’ as well.
You could call me MP Singh, then, you know, too formal, then I gotta call you ‘Ms. Gunraj’. You gotta keep it equal, you know?
00:02:09 Andrea
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay, Jagmeet. Let’s — let’s clear the air with some beef.
00:02:13 Jagmeet
Okay. Okay. Andrea. Uh… you’re doing great work. Canadian Women’s Foundation is doing great work.
This is very minor beef, but I took the test. And the test gave me a pretty even split between Challenger, Creator, and Collaborator, so I thought that was fair.
But it gave me a 0% on Connector, and I am someone who’s known for connecting to people. I love people — I love connecting, hearing their stories, understanding them, getting to know them. It’s one of my strengths. I love that.
But I got a 0%, so that’s my beef.
00:02:45 Andrea
Oh wow! I don’t know — the quiz don’t lie.
00:02:51 Jagmeet
I don’t know. I feel like sometimes a quiz might miss something because it gave me a 23.8% Challenger, 38% Creator, 38% Collaborator — and 0% Connector! I’m — I’m a little offended by that.
00:03:05 Andrea
No, be offended. I mean — listen, connecting is what you have to do. Tell me a little bit more about why you are such a connector. What does this do for you in your role?
00:03:15 Jagmeet
Well, I feel like because I faced some struggles in my life, I — those things have allowed me to be more sensitive to the struggles that other people face.
So, kid growing up, I faced some racism. My dad went through some challenges with his health and addiction, so that created a lot of friction and — and kind of troubles at home.
I went through family — went through financial difficulties, so we struggled because my dad lost his job and we had to — I had to work a bunch of jobs to take care of my kid brother who had to live with me.
All these things allowed me, I feel, to understand people and their struggles because I faced some of them. So I was a little bit more sensitive to them — more aware of them — and it helped me in the work that I do.
My whole job is about connecting to the people that I want to serve and — and be their voice and amplify their concerns, so. Yeah, it’s really important.
00:04:02 Andrea
You know, that’s what you have to do to be the right kind of leader — in my opinion, in my not humble opinion — that’s how you have to lead. It’s through connection.
In terms of your core life lessons that you bring to the effort of growing gender equality and justice in Canada, can you share what you take with you every day in the work that you do?
00:04:23 Jagmeet
There’s something my mom taught me when I was a kid. It’s like a fundamental, almost spiritual, tenet. And she said to me as a kid and continued to repeat it: that we are all one.
And… not just that we’re connected — that we’re literally one.
And so she impressed upon me this idea: if we see people struggling around us, we’re struggling. If we lift up the people around us — support the people around us — we’re all better off.
So this became a core, like, fundamental tenet. And I take that with me wherever I go — we are one.
So if someone is hurting, I’m hurting.
So on the gender equity lens, if my sisters, my mother, if gender-diverse people — if people are hurting around me, if they’re being mistreated, it’s like I’m being mistreated. I’ve got to feel it in that same way.
00:05:09 Andrea
And I believe in — there’s a big truth in that. But let me push back a little bit on this, Jagmeet.
Sometimes, men, when they talk about these issues — and I’m — I’m particularly saying I hear this from men: “oh, my mother goes through this, therefore I care about it. My sister goes through this.”
I feel that’s a little limited. What do you think about this idea of saying that “my mother, my daughter, my sister,” but what about you? What does gender equality do for you — maybe as a cisgender man, as somebody who may not go through the experiences that women, girls, and Two Spirit, trans, and non-binary people go through?
Do you see any value in speaking to what that would do for your life to make it better?
00:05:50 Jagmeet
Yeah, 100%! And — and this goes back to why, like, beyond it being my sister — it is me.
Like, it’s kind of, like, making it very much: I’m facing that inequality if my sister is facing it. Not that it’s because she’s going through it or my mom’s going through it, it’s really — it’s impacting me directly because we are one.
And so as a world we can’t move forward if — if people in our community, in our society, don’t have a voice. We are — we are missing out. I am missing out from their voice, from their contribution, from their ability to live their best life.
So it — it impacts me directly. It impacts me directly when people in our world aren’t able to live their best life, when they aren’t able to express themselves, when they aren’t able to be themselves.
Also, just purely functionally, like, practically: decision-makers, leaders — when we don’t have women representation in those spaces, we get worse decisions, worse outcomes. Things are — are bad for everybody when we don’t have women in those roles.
Frankly, more women in positions of decision-making is better for all of us.
00:06:52 Andrea
Mm. You have a big portfolio that you’re looking at, and the Canadian Women’s Foundation — also big dreams, big portfolio, gender-equal Canada.
And there’s lots of ways of breaking that up. There’s lots of different areas that we have to break barriers and move the needle forward.
I wonder: what is the issue that you’re most passionate right now about, that you think can you get the, quote unquote, ‘biggest bang for the buck’ when it comes to moving the needle on gender equality and building a gender equal Canada?
00:07:21 Jagmeet
Oh, boy. I think everything comes down to class.
Like, the — the more there’s inequality, the more that, like, working-class people, middle-class people, aren’t able to live a good life and workers are not able to earn a good living and things cost too much — all those things impact — like, class impacts women and gender disproportionately.
So anytime we fight to make life better for workers, for middle-class folks, for working-class folks — that’s directly going to make life better for — for the people who are most impacted by inequality. So — so, women and gender-diverse folks.
The other thing that’s really on our mind right now is — is access to reproductive services.
So, we are bringing forward a motion on this. So that’s kind of, like, top of mind right now because in Canada, while we have the right, we have to be vigilant to defend it.
And we also have to acknowledge that the right has less meaning if there’s not access to the right. And access in Canada is a big question.
So, we’re putting forward an emergency — or a motion on our opposition day to say we need emergency action to improve access across the country.
Because there’s lots of places like in Alberta where you can only get access to reproductive services that are trauma-informed in two cities: Calgary and Edmonton. The rest of province, there’s nowhere else we can go.
We know in places like New Brunswick, the last clinic shut down just last year. And so for people in New Brunswick, again, there’s very little access.
So access is a big question for me, I think, and that’s directly talking about autonomy… and women and gender-diverse people having control of their own bodies, which is very fundamental. It’s not just because it’s good healthcare; it’s also the principle that you should be able to control your own body.
And there’s been too much — and you know this better than me — men controlling women’s bodies, men controlling gender-diverse people’s bodies. And we got to stop that.
00:09:13 Andrea
I want to bring you back to class.
I find it really interesting — I mean, you naming class as an issue. Oftentimes, people are not talking about that kind of lens, and they’re not necessarily speaking perhaps to the gendered elements of inequalities.
I’d love to hear what you think would make a big difference for women in Canada right now.
Poverty is, of course, gendered. Class and economic barriers are gendered. What do you see as the solution right now?
00:09:45 Jagmeet
I’d say the two areas where we’re seeing the impact of that inequality — like, of class manifested in someone’s life in a real way, like, you’ll see it in your life — is when people buy their groceries or try to find a place to call home.
Those are two fundamental things. They cost so much, and you can’t find housing, you can’t afford your groceries — that’s directly going to impact gender equity.
So, a woman that’s faced with [an] abusive partner and can’t afford a place to call home, can’t afford rent, can’t afford to live on their own — directly going to take away their ability to — their power.
You can’t afford your groceries. You can’t afford your essentials, your necessities. That’s directly impacting — it’s gonna impact women disproportionately, if we look at the way poverty is gendered, so, and — and the way class is — the impacts of classes [are] gendered.
So I think the fundamental things we need to do: make it so it’s affordable to have a home.
Like, really build — not just any old housing, because we build a bunch more luxury condos or expensive million-dollar homes, that’s not going to make housing more affordable.
We gotta build truly affordable homes. We gotta look at not-for-profit, cooperative housing — lots of variety, a diverse spread of homes. So people can actually find a place that they can actually afford.
And I think that’s going to help with equality. It’s going to help, particularly, the gendered element of creating equality.
00:11:08 Andrea
Let me ask you this: it’s maybe a bit philosophical, but this is something that I’ve seen, maybe in the last 10–20 years.
I… have seen people say: “gender is now included in every policy — and equality, it’s on paper.”
But we know that equality on paper doesn’t necessarily translate to lived experience. It doesn’t necessarily translate to feeling like your rights are truly fully realized and you’re thriving.
What would you tell people in Canada who say: “oh, we’ve already achieved gender equality. That’s no longer a problem domestically. It’s not a national issue we have to forefront.”
What would you tell them to care about gender equality as a forefront issue?
00:11:54 Jagmeet
Mm. I would say first of all, with any rights, you have to be vigilant. There’s always attacks on rights. And so just because we have a right doesn’t mean it’s guaranteed.
I think people in the States thought that Roe v. Wade was established law — that there wouldn’t be attacks on that.
And now it’s overturned, and you’ve got many places in the States — many states in the United States where — where women and gender-diverse folks can’t access reproductive services and procedures. Like, they can’t get an abortion. It’s huge.
So, I think you never can take your rights for granted. We always have to be vigilant.
And there are still really clear, evidence-based outcomes that are not equal when it comes to — to gender equity. We know that women still earn less when it comes to pay.
We know that, in terms of positions of power, that women are underrepresented.
We know in politics and elected seats, women are still underrepresented. Women make up half of the population of the country and do not make up half the positions of power, half the elected positions.
So clearly there’s something going on there.
So yeah, there’s still way more that needs to be done, without a doubt.
I’m also a bit biased because I am now a dad of two daughters. So I want to do my part as an ally, because I’m worried about the type of world my daughters grow up in.
So I want to make sure I’m doing everything so they can say, yeah, their pops fought hard to make sure that they can live their best lives.
00:13:16 Andrea
They’re the ones who are going to say whether or not we achieved all the big things that we said we were going to achieve. I appreciate that a lot.
00:13:22 Jagmeet
Exactly.
00:13:23 Andrea
What’s a powerful takeaway that you can give to our listeners based on your expertise? No matter who we are, or what sphere of influence we have, how can we be all gender equality changemakers in a better way in our lives?
00:13:23 Jagmeet
You said this at the top actually — so I give you lots of credit for that — that one of the most important ways we can lead is by connecting.
Not assuming that we have the answers, and not assuming we know what’s going on. We’ve got to speak to the people impacted.
So, especially for me, this is very important as a — as a man, as a cisgender man, I gotta — I gotta make sure I’m listening to the people that are impacted and saying, “well, what is the challenge right now? You tell me what you’re experiencing and let me help amplify your voice.”
It’s not even about giving power. Women already have power, gender-diverse people already have power.
It’s amplifying that power. It’s giving space for that power to flourish.
And so, I would say that one of the takeaways is how important connecting with people, hearing them — hearing women, hearing gender-diverse people on — on what the challenges are.
And so we’re not kind of having this paternalistic like, “oh, I know what’s best, let me give you the solutions.”
More like, “you tell me what I need to do, and let’s walk this path together.”
00:14:22 Andrea
Alright, Now What?
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