A recent ⁠House of Commons report⁠ speaks to the rise of ideologically motivated violent extremism in Canada, based on xenophobic, gender-driven, anti-authority, and other personal grievance-driven ideas and ideologies. The report says that, in the age of social media, it can “elude the terminology and analytical frameworks long used by our law enforcement and national security agencies”, and these “longstanding national security threats have been joined by a new breed of violent extremists, lone actors, and leaderless movements whose alliances and espoused causes are constantly mutating.”

In Canada, we’ve seen a 72% increase in hate crimes since 2019. It’s due to increased hate in digital spaces against women, 2SLGBTQIA+ people, and targeted ethnic and religious groups.

Over coming episodes, we’re delving into gendered digital hate and harassment with leading experts and content creators, releasing in-depth episodes every single week. We talk about the problem and what we can do to change it. We offer practical tips to help you in your digital life, and we talk about what it means to “take back the tech” for all of us.

Here to draw lines between rising extremism and gendered digital abuse is Barbara Perry, Professor in the Faculty of Social Science and Humanities at Ontario Tech University, and Director of the Centre on Hate, Bias and Extremism. Barbara holds a UNESCO Chair in Hate Studies. She has written extensively on social justice, hate crime, and right-wing extremism. Her books include Diversity, Crime and Justice in Canada, In the Name of Hate: Understanding Hate Crime, and Right-wing Extremism in Canada. Her work has been published in journals representing diverse disciplines: Theoretical Criminology, Studies in Conflict and Terrorism, Journal of History and Politics, and American Indian Quarterly. Dr. Perry continues to work in the area of hate crime, and has made substantial contributions to the limited scholarship on hate crime in Canada, including work on anti-Muslim violence, antisemitic hate crime, hate crime against 2SLGBTQI communities, the community impacts of hate crime, and right-wing extremism in Canada. She is regularly called upon by policy makers, practitioners, and local, national and international media as an expert on hate crime and right-wing extremism. This series of podcast episodes has been made possible in part by the Government of Canada.

Transcript

00:00:02 Barbara

Amongst some of the most virulent far right forums, Canadian actors were the most frequent posters. That’s something I think we need to sit up and take notice – that we’re contributing to this toxic environment.

00:00:16 Andrea

How does a rise in extremism and hate intersect with gendered digital hate and harassment?

I’m Andrea Gunraj from the Canadian Women’s Foundation.

Welcome to Alright, Now What? a podcast from the Canadian Women’s Foundation. We put an intersectional feminist lens on stories that make you wonder, “why is this still happening?” We explore systemic routes and strategies for change that will move us closer to the goal of gender justice.

The work of the Canadian Women’s Foundation and our partners takes place on traditional First Nations, Métis and Inuit territories. We are grateful for the opportunity to meet and work on this land. However, we recognize that land acknowledgements are not enough. We need to pursue truth, reconciliation, decolonization, and allyship in an ongoing effort to make right with all our relations.

00:01:09 Andrea

Whether you’re on social media, streaming platforms, dating, messaging and meeting apps, or on game sites, if you are a woman, girl or Two Spirit, trans or non-binary person, you are at greater risk of hate, harassment, and violence.

A recent House of Commons report speaks to the rise of ideologically motivated violent extremism in Canada, based on xenophobic, gender-driven, anti-authority, and other personal grievance-driven ideas and ideologies. The report says that, in our age of social media, it can “elude the terminology and analytical frameworks long used by our law enforcement and national security agencies”, and these “longstanding national security threats have been joined by a new breed of violent extremists, lone actors, and leaderless movements whose alliances and espoused causes are constantly mutating.”

In Canada, we’ve seen a 72% increase in hate crime since 2019. It’s due to increased hate in digital spaces against women, 2SLGBTQIA+ people and targeted ethnic and religious groups.

Over coming episodes, we’re delving into gendered digital hate and harassment with leading experts and content creators, releasing in-depth episodes every single week. We talk about the problem and what we can do to change it. We offer practical tips to help you and your digital life, and we talk about what it means to “take back the tech” for all of us.

Here to draw lines between rising extremism and gendered digital abuse is Barbara Perry, professor in the Faculty of Social Science and Humanities at Ontario Tech University and director of the Centre on Hate, Bias and Extremism. Barbara holds a UNESCO Chair in Hate Studies and has written extensively on social justice, hate crime, and right-wing extremism.

Dr. Perry has made substantial contributions to limited scholarship on hate crime in Canada, including anti-Muslim violence, anti-Semitic hate crime, hate crime against 2SLGBTQIA+ communities, and community impacts of hate crime and right-wing extremism in Canada. She’s regularly called upon by policymakers, practitioners, and media for her expertise.

00:03:24 Barbara

I am a professor in criminology, criminology and social justice let’s say, at Ontario Tech University in the Faculty of Social Science Humanities. I’m also the director of the Centre on Hate, Bias and Extremism, which was launched here in 2018, which has been really exciting to watch that grow and build that out. Also recently been named a UNESCO Chair in Hate Studies so that gives it sort of that international perspective and certainly will broaden, I think our networks in that respect.

I think it’s as the title of the Centre suggests, I mean that’s really the work that I do. It’s fairly wide-ranging. I consider myself, as the UNESCO chair suggests, you know an expert in hate studies which covers a lot of very dark ground. Most of my career has been focused on hate crime specifically, in particular, the experiences of targeted communities. But more recently I found myself, by happenstance really, you know, sort of one of the one of the early and leading scholars I guess on right-wing extremism in the Canadian context specifically.

One of the things that I guess I like to say is that I’m sort of a maybe atoning for my sins as a child. If you ask anyone, especially from my grade school days, not so much from high school, but from grade school, you know, if I would have been working in this space, they would have said, “hell no, she was a bully”. Literally I was. I was one of those Mean Girls. Absolutely, in fact, several years ago we had a class reunion amongst some of our elementary school friends and some of the girls in particular that we, at that time women, that we called up to say, hey, we’re having this reunion and why would I want to be with you people ever again? You were so mean to me.

This is, I think in some part as I say, me sort of atoning for all of that and you know, should any of those students and boys and girls, men and women, be listening, I apologize profoundly. I was a horrible person, as a youngster. So trust me, I hope I’m a better person now.

00:05:28 Andrea

What’s the connection between gendered online hate and harassment and far right extremism?

00:05:33 Barbara

You can’t separate them. They are so intimately intertwined. And I hardly know where to start here in terms of which end of the role of yarn do we pull out.

Let’s start with extremism – far right extremism, which is really what we’ve been seeing so dramatically increasing over the past almost decade now, it’s, you know, it’s been on the on the upswing for a while. We often talk about, you know, the racism and the Islamophobia associated with the far right. I think we’re a little quieter on the gendered nature of the movement as well.

And that comes through in a number of ways. On the one hand, I mean, the adherents are predominantly men and there is a real toxic masculinity to their presentation of self, to the nature and the intensity of their dialogues right – that sense of bravado, tough, tough, tough guy, tough guys if you will – g-u-y-s and g-u-i-s-e both.

But also really at the core of the far right, if you think about the 14 words, which is one of their key mottos, right: “we must secure the existence of the white race and a future for our children”, all of that, which you know, it’s foundational to the movement, that implies then a need to control “our women”. Right? If we want to maintain the sanctity of the white race, then we have to maintain the sanctity of white women.

That is, we cannot allow them to be sullied by, you know, interracial relationships or we can’t allow them to make their own decisions about their sexuality and about their choices in life. So, I think the gendered piece comes in very clearly on both sides there.

And of course all of this is playing out increasingly in those online spaces. And I think in the sort of in the offline space, you know we’re seeing, it’s not just a loss of civility, or a lack of civility, we’re seeing a real celebration at the political level, at the social level, at the cultural level, a celebration in fact, of disrespect, a celebration of hostility, misogyny, racism. That I think is creating this climate, what I’ve often referred to as a climate of hate, that then is reproduced in the online sphere, and it’s exacerbated by the online sphere because there’s less accountability.

There is some sense of invisibility, even though, even if your name is on your account, right, there’s still a feeling of somehow when you’re hiding behind a screen, of anonymity. So, it really is another enabler, I think for people to express the most heinous of notions and threats in fact.

00:08:09 Andrea

In your work and research, is there anything that surprises you about the growth of extremism and digital misogyny?

00:08:15 Barbara

What surprises me is the persistence and beyond that, not just the persistence, but the dramatic increase that we’re seeing in gendered violence, both discursive, you know, and physical as well – sexual violence that we’re seeing directed towards women.

That, you know, one would have accepted, as with racism and homophobia and so many other issues, one would have expected by 2023 that, you know, we’d begin to see some ebbing of the problem. And in fact, we’re not. We’re seeing, I think, a dramatic increase in the last few years in private spheres, but also in very public spheres as well.

So, in particular, women who are particularly powerful, women who are particularly vocal, and visible, independent and you know, don’t back down from an argument or confrontation. So, women in politics, women in journalism, women professionals, you know, in high professional positions, they are more and more subject to, not again, not just online threats but offline threats.

You know we’ve seen several examples of Canadian women politicians being physically assaulted, verbally assaulted in person, their offices graffitied with the sexist and misogynistic language. So, there is that sort of backlash, I guess, which explains in part that increase again – “these women have stepped out of line, they’re beyond our control now”, which also signals then, the other part of it right is that perceived threat or that perceived loss of status and control over the world around them and especially the women around them.

00:09:57 Andrea

It seems like lots of regions in the world have been struggling with regulation and holding tech companies accountable. But is there anything unique you’ve noticed about the ways these issues play out in the Canadian context?

00:10:09 Barbara

There is that multiple layers of influence that we’re sort of absorbing from other countries, especially from the US but also from you know, our European allies, if you will. So, you know we’re bombarded from all sides with those kinds of narratives and those kinds of ideologies.

But I think in the Canadian context, I think – and I referred earlier to that sort of backlash piece – and I think that in the Canadian context, because we have such a long and embedded history of at least a discourse of multiculturalism, a discourse of egalitarianism and inclusion, that that is also part of that broader threat that you know that folks perceive.

Literally, we’re one of the few countries that has a multiculturalism policy and so everything is understood as politically correct, as being woke, so I think it’s really a response to that discursive history as well as the much more material implications and impacts of that in terms of the rights gains made by women, members of the queer community, racial communities, the whole array.

They look to immigration policy as piece of that right and immigration policy, which is what has shaped our country for over a century. That is seen as part of that you know, related to the multiculturalism ethos that is distinctly Canadian and immigration has resulted in new kinds of threats and new kinds of people that we don’t want here.

As you say, I think it is, you know, the same challenge that all countries are trying to deal with now. It’s how do we regulate if they’re not going to self-regulate, you know the media companies, how do we regulate?

And I think that’s exacerbated by the fact that Canadian far right actors in particular are very active in the online sphere. Part of our last study working with the Institute for Strategic Dialogue out of the UK, I mean they found that amongst some of the most virulent far right forums Canadian actors are the most frequent posters. That’s something I think we need to sit up and take notice – that we’re contributing to this toxic environment, punching above our weight as some will say.

Clearly, the social media companies are not self-regulating. Yet, there’s a real hesitancy and unwillingness on the part of the Canadian government, amongst others, to intervene. And I think it is a hesitancy. I think it’s almost a fear to intervene and to, you know, poke the bear that is social media.

00:12:46 Andrea

What are some practical safety solutions you’d offer to users at high risk in digital spaces?

00:12:52 Barbara

You don’t want to say, “well, just get offline”, because that’s where we live and that then silences, you know, whole communities or would attempt to silence whole communities. So that’s not the direction you want to go. You really want to, you know, you really want to be proactive there, I think. Part of it is about building allyships and about building communities, if you will.

I think more importantly, even, is for the sort of the bystanders, if you will, to not be bystanders, but to be upstanders and to intervene then – themselves engage or speak back so that it doesn’t fall just to the person or the group or the individuals that are being targeted, but that there is a community that builds up.

And then it becomes apparent, right, because once one or two do that, it’s easier for others and then it becomes apparent that the bullies are outnumbered in those spaces, I mean. So, I think that that’s really, really empowering for the individual, but also, I think for communities. It builds up that sense of resiliency and ability to push back. You know, I know people report, report, report and then they give up and I think we just need to be persistent right. Like an absolute campaign of reporting. So again, if you’ve got you know several thousand or even several hundred members of a particular page, or whatever the case may be, if you all report, right, you know that gets attention.

One person quietly, you know, sort of indicating there’s a problem – they may or may not listen, but if you’ve got this swamp almost, I think that’s a tactic that might work. So, I think it’s about not being silenced, which is the intent of the of the posters. It’s to not allow yourself to be or not allow others in fact, to be silenced, you know? So if it’s a Sikh being, you know, targeted, it’s especially important for those who are not Sikh to intervene. If it’s a woman, then those who are not women, to intervene.

Bullies do weaken people. They do disempower people. So sometimes it’s important for those who are not part of the community to stand up first or at the very least, standing beside.

00:15:01 Andrea

What are the systemic changes you’d like to see to end gendered digital hate and harassment?

00:15:06 Barbara

For me, I think the first step is, let’s effectively enforce the legislation that we already have – first of all, first step, right? So, let’s use the hate propaganda legislation we have. Let’s use the hate crime legislation to enhance sentencing when you know when there is an issue. But also, that said, I think that those criminal justice or legal responses are not necessarily the most effective route.

I talk about a whole society response, and I think the most important role for government here is to support those who are doing the work on the ground – is to fund those who are doing the work, provide them whatever they need to build an infrastructure to challenge hate wherever they see it, to challenge extremism.

So, whether it’s at the local level and some of the grassroots organizations that respond to specific events or patterns in their own community, or whether it’s national organizations that develop programs that can be replicated elsewhere or developed, and media campaigns and social media campaigns that are visible. That’s one of the most important roles for government, actually – is to support the work that’s already being done and support new initiatives as well.

Start with the problem. So, you know, we develop programs and maybe sometimes they’re funded first time around. We develop programs, they appear to be working or they’re only funded for one year. How do we know in a year if they’re effective or not? It’s got to be sustainable as well. So, you get a two-year project, looks like it’s really working well, but it’s not funded for a second round. There goes whatever progress was made.

00:16:43 Andrea

Are there resources you’d point our listeners to?

00:16:45 Barbara

I have sort of, you know, directions to look to. You know, any of the national women’s organizations that are challenging this, and most are, cause a lot of them have toolkits on their websites, right, for how to defend yourself, or how to be more resilient, or how to build a counter-narrative campaign, those sorts of things. So, there are plenty of resources out there.

More and more, I think at the local level, rather than at the national level. So, and local in a couple of ways. So, you know, what are some of the initiatives in your local community? Are there a number of other people who share your concerns? Can you build then a coalition that’s intended? Are there civil society organizations in the community that you can pool their resources together to develop initiatives and programs and supports?

And then there’s the workplace piece because a lot of these problem issues that we’re seeing also emerge in the workplace by the nature of the work. So, female journalists, for example. More and more of the organizations that serve those industries are themselves developing, whether it’s, you know, a women’s caucus or women’s support framework or programming around anti-hate. So, look to the professional organizations. Look to your workplace. The universities, for example, and professors who teach in this space are also targeted, so we’re seeing universities building out strategies.

00:18:18 Andrea

Alright, now what? Check out the Centre on Hate, Bias and Extremism at ontariotechu.ca. Listen to our November 2022 episode with Barbara Perry on women and white nationalism.

Get the facts from gendered digital hate, harassment, and abuse by visiting our fact page on canadianwomen.org. While you’re there, read about our new Feminist Creator Prize to uplift feminist digital creators advocating for gender justice, safety, and freedom from harm.

Did this episode help you? Did you learn anything new? We want to know. Please visit this episode’s show notes to fill out our brief listener survey. You’ll be entered to win a special prize pack.

This series of podcast episodes has been made possible in part by the Government of Canada.

Please listen, subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. If you appreciate this content, please consider becoming a monthly donor to the Canadian Women’s Foundation. People like you will make the goal of gender justice a reality. Visit canadianwomen.org to give today and thank you for your tireless support.